From Self-doubt to Self-leadership with Kevin Lee | Slow Down To Speed Up #001

Summary

Have you ever felt the tension of transitioning from individual contributor to leader? Faced the uncertainty of how to lead effectively? Maybe even felt guilty that you weren't doing the work you used to? In this episode, I coach Kevin Lee, CEO of immi, and we dive into this topic head on. Deeper into the session, I help Kevin confront the emotional core of his troubles. And from there, he works through some deep insecurities, which helps him make the surprising connection between his inner world and his outer leadership.

Transcript

Brian Wang:

Welcome to Slow Down, to Speed Up. I'm Brian Wang, an executive coach who helps startup founders grow by working through their biggest challenges. On this show, I sit down with founders for a one-time coaching session where you will hear things my guests never say elsewhere, because they're working through real life current leadership issues. When we struggle, we're often tempted to find a quick solution, and sometimes that's all we need. But when we're finding ourselves stuck in those really tricky recurring problems, that's when it's time to slow down, because breaking through to the next level requires us to examine what patterns may be holding us back and what new perspective might be called for. I ask everyone who comes here to dig deep and trust that through this work, they will discover something new about themselves and how to move forward with their business. I hope you find something valuable in what you hear today for your own journey. In today's session, I work with Kevin Lee, co-founder and CEO of Imi, which makes the world's healthiest ramen noodles. Together we explore a common challenge making the leap from individual contributor to leader. It's worth noting that Kevin's been actively working on this issue for some time. He's made a lot of progress as Imi has grown, but he still struggles and he senses it's because of some deeper reason. We start by looking at his belief that earning the respect of his team means being in the trenches with them, by making his work visible, valuable and obvious for all to see. What Kevin eventually realizes is that all of this comes down to deeper fears and insecurities that, if left unaddressed, will wreak havoc on his business. Okay, let's listen in. Hey, kevin, good to see you, man, good to see you too. It's been a while. Yeah, it's been a little while. I'm excited to get into another session with you today and I just want to hand it off to you and just ask you, kevin, as you're coming into our session and a conversation, what are you bringing in that you want to take a look at right now?

Kevin Lee:

I think that for today's topic I'd love to discuss something that's been top of mind recently and probably has been top of mind for the past six months to a year now. Imi has grown, partially thanks to a lot of your help over the past few years, to a team of around 15 people now. We do have some part-time folks, of course, outside of that, but 15 full-time, and one of the problems I continue facing as a leader is learning how to stop myself from continuing to want to do individual contributor level work as a way to both fulfill, I would say maybe just a personal need of, you know, wanting to build things when they're ground up. But if I were more self-aware, it feels like why I'm doing a lot of the individual contributor work still is, I feel, this incessant need to earn the respect of my org and just the team in general. Part of that stems from the fact that my co-founder, k-chan, and I really had to do everything with just the two of us for the first few years before we even hired our first team member. So there is kind of a ingrained habit there. But I'd love to dig deeper into why I can't seem to let go and spend more time, delegating, managing the team, enabling the team to succeed, versus jumping in and wanting to do the individual level, individual contributor level work.

Brian Wang:

Yeah, yeah, totally, and this is a topic that you and I have touched on before. Right it's. It's something that I think a lot of people struggle with when they're when they're going from IC to leader or maker to manager, that that transition, I think, is notoriously difficult, and so I guess, given the fact that it's an issue that you've been aware of for a while and you have really worked on, I'm curious, you know, if you were to just spend a few minutes, even like, like theorizing as to why it's been such a struggle for you. I'm curious how you describe it.

Kevin Lee:

Yeah, it's interesting. I think that there was probably a phase one of this issue which was, like you described, the the typical issue from maker to manager, where I did struggle in the early days with delegating, letting go, and then that no longer became an issue, especially as we group past 10 team members, as we all brought on, for example, our own you know, even our own executive assistants for each team member. You know we teach delegation pretty heavily, even at Emmy when, during onboarding. However, I think there was a phase two where, beyond just the maker to manager transition, I noticed that there was again something even deeper rooted which was this yeah, I could. I don't know if it's a people pleasing tendency, I don't know if it's a immigrant upbringing type situation, but there definitely was this need to show my org. Hey, look, guys like I can do the work too alongside you. And we're in the trenches together and, you know, I maybe, my, maybe it's a leadership or management style where I have to almost like be in the weeds with you guys so that you feel like I'm there beside you, versus just some manager who has lost touch with reality and, yeah, no longer understands how to actually even do the work. And this has been a constant insecurity of mine, even before becoming a founder. I recall when I was working as even a product manager in tech, I always felt this need that I had to be the one learning how to design or code so that I could do the work equally well as well as my fellow engineer or designer, even though that that wasn't clear the case, but sure there was. Just that there was this need to again be in the trenches with the folks to earn their respect.

Brian Wang:

Quote-unquote yeah, yeah, so let's, let's go there for a moment then. So you said that you can notice yourself almost, go and communicate to the team. Hey guys, I'm one of you, I'm with you, I'm in the trenches, I can do this alongside you, and you link that to respect. So tell me about what the link there is between being worthy of respect and this way of showing up, as I can get my hands dirty too like what's the link there for you?

Kevin Lee:

I think the link perhaps comes from my own experiences working in my career prior to being, prior to starting in me, where I might have a particular bias for the managers I always enjoyed working with. But the managers I love working with could do the work that I did, often even doing it better than I ever could, and it was through watching them that I truly felt wow, you know, you, you could do my work, but you're not because you're managing me. Therefore, I need to step it up as as your direct report, and I think there was something that transferred over, you know, especially when I became a leader here at Imi, where I felt that I had to embody that same role model mentality that I myself cherished when I was working in the tech industry so cool.

Brian Wang:

Let me, let me bounce that back. So in your past working history with managers, when they would come in and really actively demonstrate that they could do the job the same job and maybe even better that to you it felt like it sounded like it actually raised the stakes for you in some sense. If I heard it correctly, it's like okay, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna call your manager Bob for okay, manager Bob, okay. So manager Bob comes in. It's like, hey, kevin, you're working on this thing, and he just goes and just actively shows you he can do it ten times better, you know. And but you also sit with the knowledge that he's not going and doing the work, he's managing you. So there you are feeling like, ah, he's, bob is watching me, he knows how to do this job well, I'd really better, I really have to show up and do it as well, if not better, than Bob. We're getting somewhere close to it and so before like, let's, we'll spend more time on that. But what I'm hearing from that is that was motivating to you in some way and it also made you look at Bob in a certain way, and then the hope is that that sort of translates similarly to your team am I? Am I describing it correctly?

Kevin Lee:

that is definitely correct. I think there's. That is that's what I think about. And even though people always say, hey, there's plenty of role models in different industries, there's sports coaches who never played, you know, professional sports, who are able to coach a team into winning championships. And then, on the other side of the spectrum, you have folks like I don't know an Elon Musk who can get down into the weeds of rocket science and banter with the engineers as if he was a fellow rocket scientist. Yes, I see both sides of the spectrums. For some reason, I seem to gravitate more towards the Elon Musk side of things, more so than the coaches never played the professional sport, even though I know both work.

Brian Wang:

Sure, that might just be an insecurity of mine okay, so let me ask a dumb question what makes it a problem that you're leaning towards that these days?

Kevin Lee:

I think the problem is that I find myself here's a small example At Emmy we run marketing sprint planning because we have now five members in the marketing team, including myself, and we're all different, doing different work streams. Some are perhaps even overlapping, and we just need to make sure that in every sprint cycle we're not accidentally again overlapping too much of the work. And I really should just be overseeing that sprint planning process because a lot of the projects that come up are individual contributor work. But I find myself volunteering to take over projects or tasks just because I feel guilty if I am the one walking away from that sprint with the fewest amount of tasks in my swim lane.

Brian Wang:

And this is a situation just to clarify. This is a situation where others could theoretically take those on Correct. See, it's not a case where it's like, oh man, we just, we don't have the capacity. It's like, you know, it's really this guilt thing rather than whoa, where everyone's overextended, kevin's gotta step it up. Is that kind of what we're talking about?

Kevin Lee:

I think it's probably 50, maybe 60%. Guilt 40%. Oh, that does sound exciting to me. But then I start to question oh, should I even be excited about it? Versus, should I just delegate, you know, enable other team members to take it on, yeah, and yeah, so there's this.

Brian Wang:

Well, it's interesting because I hear I asked you the question, what makes it a problem? And you noted how one of the problems quote unquote is that you have this sensation of guilt around you know, not having, you know, some work from the sprint, and also there's some genuine excitement. So I hear there's like a there's some positive attractor there.

Kevin Lee:

If we were to look at the team, though, like what is the problem for the team, if any, right now, as you're touching this, I think one problem is that if I develop a habit of consistently wanting to pick up tasks or projects every single sprint, I'm going to overload myself doing a lot of this individual contributor work versus spending time as a leader doing what a leader should, which I think we've spoken about. You know when I won't reiterate all the things like making sure that people are, you know, the right people on the bus, setting the vision, setting the right goals, giving people resources all that stuff is going to falter with every second that I spend trying to spin up some new project or task myself, and the other thing that happens is I'm also taking away an opportunity for other team members to learn that particular project or task, just because I feel I'm qualified and it's fun for me and something I want to pick up. So I think there's a two-fold issue here that's happening. Yeah, yeah that. I'm trying to learn to let go of.

Brian Wang:

Right, okay, so there's the opportunity cost. There's like, oh there's, I'm taking away from my direct leadership influence on the team when I'm loading myself with IC work and I'm also in some ways robbing people the opportunity to grow and learn and excel when I take on some of those projects as well. So we'll probably come back to the guilt thing. That feels important, but I wonder if we can turn our attention toward the team for now. So when you pause and you really consider what would be most of service to the team right In this current phase of life for me and where you're going, describe for me what they really need from you.

Kevin Lee:

Yeah, that's an excellent question. I think that the team right now, the stage that we're at, the most important thing is and this is like the logical side of me talking out loud so it is setting the direction in which the team needs to move towards, which oftentimes comes down to providing the goals. We do OKR planning. So that usually means I just need to provide them with the objective, and the team should then be able to figure out their own key results as well as the projects to achieve those key results. Outside of that, the most important thing is what I call you know, when you think of management. It's ensuring that they have the right resources to accomplish those key results and objectives, as well as unblocking them. So helping to figure out where I can insert myself for, again, provide resources to help unblock them. And then the third I would say is pushing them in ways that they may not push themselves right. It's like believing in someone more than they would believe in themselves. Yeah, I think those are probably the. I think there were four elements there that I know would be the most beneficial to the team members. Yeah, and again, yeah, I think doing individual contributor work takes away from those four items.

Brian Wang:

Got it Okay. So there's the setting the goal, envision the direction broadly. There's the unblocking making sure people have sufficient resources, clarity, et cetera. And there's the pushing. There's this sort of dynamic where of hey, I know that there's more for you, you have greater potential than where you are now. Let me push you toward that, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm wondering, as you're connecting with those items you mentioned this as the kind of intellectual answer as you're connecting with those particular responsibilities what do you notice? You start to feel.

Kevin Lee:

I feel that the four items I listed are almost just management woo-woo talk, which is hilarious because it's like every book you read, everyone you talk to, they all say those same four things. Yet when I think of those, I'm like, okay, yeah, of course we're gonna give you like an objective, but that's one. What is that? Like a one week, two weeks out of like the quarter that you're doing that kind of thinking, and of course, I'm going to help unblock you or push you a little bit harder. Make sure you have enough resources. We do that during the one-on-ones, but is that 24 seven of my time? No, therefore, am I supposed to just sit around during the times? I'm not doing those things? And I think that's probably where that guilt kicks in, because I'm thinking God, that sounds like management talk versus let's all move, let's all go in the same direction, like I want to.

Brian Wang:

Again, I want to be there building with you. So when you say, okay, interesting. So when you say woo-woo and just hear you describe it, it sounds like it's almost like you're skeptical of it in some sense. Or it's like, yeah, like I know, like that's what you're supposed to do, but that can't really take up all of my time, right? Is that all that I have to do? And then there's, like this, the remainder of your time working. You're sort of left to wonder, like what else do I do with my energy Is kind of what I'm picking up here.

Kevin Lee:

That's what it feels like and again, the logical side of me could always rationalize like, oh, maybe that means I need to better prioritize what I spend my personal time doing, doing things the rest of the team can't do with partnerships or BD, and maybe it's a matter of prioritization. But yeah, I think deep down I need to unblock or remove that negative story I have around the management woo-woo piece because that's probably holding me back as a leader, if I had to guess.

Brian Wang:

Okay, so what's that negative story that you have of it? If you were just to describe it in a few sentences?

Kevin Lee:

I think the negative story is, having worked a decade in the tech industry at mid to large to you know, hyperscale companies and seeing middle management that feels more like bureaucracy than actually helping push the organization forward. And when you see that kind of bloat, you can't help but feel that sometimes managers don't really do anything and I don't ever wanna be a manager like that. I want the team. You know people say what is it? They say servant leadership. I don't even know if that's the right term here, where it's like. I've always interpreted it as as like you are doing the work with the team. You are the servant of the team in a way, and maybe that's just something I've tried to adopt or the mentality. Maybe I don't even have the definition right. I need to figure it out. But yeah, I think that's where that comes from.

Brian Wang:

So you have this direct experience of management as like a bloated function.

Kevin Lee:

Yes, and To be fair, I was a lot more junior then, so there are probably many things I didn't see that management was doing. Maybe they were shielding us from, I don't even know. Like I think, the later I get in my career, the more I start to realize how naive I was earlier in my career. Sure, so I'm trying to have the empathy, but it is hard to unsee those things.

Brian Wang:

What that sort of brings up to me is, in a lot of ways, there's this invisible work that leaders and managers do, and then there's the perception that the teams that they lead have of the leader, right. So, no matter what people are gonna form opinions of you, and it's almost guaranteed that those opinions are not gonna be like a full reflection of reality, because that's just the way humans work, like we don't contain all of the truth of everything. It's all subjective. And so the reason it's coming up for me is because I'm hearing you reflect on how it felt back then. There was like this naivete, and then how it feels now. It's like, oh, you have this knowledge that not everything a leader is doing might be so obvious to a team, right? And so I wonder, like, to what extent this is you needing to make your work obvious? to the team.

Kevin Lee:

There is a. Actually I've never heard a phrase like that and I think the moment you said that it definitely did resonate a little bit. It was definitely that oh, I'm trying to make it obvious to you that I am delivering value versus being this middle manager who's just like sitting in the background overseeing the work quote unquote and not really truly feeling like I'm delivering value to you.

Brian Wang:

So Well, but there's a linkage there that I'm hearing. There's like delivering real value is linked to it being obvious, yes, right. And so I wanna maybe use an analogy here. People talk about behind the scenes, right? They often when some amazing work has been created. People also give credit to people who are behind the scenes, and we understand that behind the scenes individuals are not in a spotlight, right, and part of the reason people thank them explicitly is because they're not getting recognition. Like it would be easy to forget about them. And so I wanna sort of like play with that idea. Like, because we know that those people behind the scenes are essential, right, they're doing incredibly important work on a film set. There's, just, like, so many people who are doing essential work that were not for them, the film would never get created, right, so we know that they're providing some real value there. So I'm sort of wondering if we can play with that analogy. What if it were possible for you to know you were really providing this behind the scenes work, or invisible work, whatever you wanna call it, without it having to be obvious from the outside or even to the team per se? What if it were possible for you to just sit knowing I am really aiding this team, and they may not even know a lot of the ways in which I'm doing that on the surface.

Kevin Lee:

I mean I would love for that to happen. I think part of that almost feels like I just have to learn to value myself and the work that I am doing, without needing the external validation from a team member or direct report saying, hey, kevin, you're doing a great job, all the stuff you're doing to help manage me has really helped unblock me, like short of them directly saying that I just need to feel that level of confidence and I don't think I'm there yet Okay.

Brian Wang:

so let's pause there, because I think what you're touching on feels really important. So can you just say more about the piece where, like, I need to value myself more here?

Kevin Lee:

I think that a lot of times, what you said around, like a lot of leaders do a lot of work behind the scenes, they don't get credit for it and that's okay. I'd like to hope that that is the case for me and the team. I'd like to hope that everyone feels equally that I care about them as a manager, I truly care about their development, and I don't actually I don't need them to tell me that, right, I think I just inherently like that's the type I want to mentor them, help them grow, yeah, at the same time.

Brian Wang:

But there is a part that does wanna hear that True?

Kevin Lee:

yes, I think from just like a basic human ego. Yes, of course, it would be nice to hear that too. Also, as like the feedback loop, to know you are doing a like, you wanna make sure you are pointing them in the right direction, you are doing a job. So, yes, there's probably ways I can solicit that kind of feedback. Maybe I just need to do it a little bit more actively during one-on-ones.

Brian Wang:

Well. So I wanna maybe comment on that. So I think you could do that. You could go and speak to your team in a way where maybe it opens up more of an opportunity for them to give you positive feedback and I think positive feedback is fantastic. But I'm more curious about sort of how you're relating to the need itself. So let me try to be a little bit clear about what I mean, Because what I'm hearing in this conversation, Kevin, is that you notice the desire to receive praise from others, and we might even agree that that desire to receive praise from others is part of the quote, quote, quote, quote problem, Like it's part of what's driving you to kind of do the IC work right. Or the flip side to that is the guilt right. If I don't have that work, ic work then I must have done something wrong or I'm not gonna get the praise I want. There are multiple angles there so that all feels like it goes back to this thing where I need to value myself Like what does that mean to you? Hmm.

Kevin Lee:

This is gonna be a much longer session. I was like if we could probably go into childhood upbringing and the desire to need that validation from the immigrant parents. There's probably a lot of deep rooted things here that are leading to this type of thinking. Gosh, I'm trying to figure out where to even go, given how massive this could be if we were trying to dig deeper.

Brian Wang:

Well, let's tune into where you are in this present moment, this now moment. So how much can you value yourself right now? How much can you love yourself right now? Like how present are you to that?

Kevin Lee:

I mean, I think that's the gap really is. Clearly I am not valuing myself and the effort that I put into caring about the team and I'd like to think the team knows that I truly do put a lot of effort into working with them and managing them but there's, like this self criticism that's clearly happening Even in the way. I think I even started this conversation where I said I'm doing this individual work and it's because I don't really value the managerial work that I'm doing. I'm calling it woo, woo, Right, like there's. It's almost like I'm intentionally putting that criticism so that I have a higher bar for myself constantly. So I'll keep raising my own bar over and over.

Brian Wang:

I never want to actually hit the bar, so how much does that internal critic prevent you from feeling valuable?

Kevin Lee:

Oh a lot. I think that it. I think it's no different than the founders I listened to who tell themselves oh, I don't want to let go of my chip on my shoulder through therapy, because then I'll lose my drive. I think that's exactly what's happening here, as I think, now that I'm speaking out loud, it's like yeah, I feel that as a manager, I'm unwilling to accept the role that I should be playing so that I can maintain this chip on the shoulder, that I need to up level myself as a manager even further, but instead I'm then resorting to the wrong responsibilities and, yeah, clearly it's holding me back as a leader.

Brian Wang:

Sure, yeah. So I wonder if you can see if you can actually move a little bit closer to that critic internally, so see if you can notice how it sits in your system, see if you can grow just a little more curious about it, Like it's clearly working really hard and maybe it's working in I don't know we could call it counterproductive ways I use that term lately but I wonder what happens for you as you start to move toward it a little bit and you start to wonder, like what is this thing really trying to do here?

Kevin Lee:

Well, as I move towards it, the first thing that I think about is how can I reimagine this relationship I have with the concept of management and the value that management brings. And I think it's only if I can let go of that type of negative language I just spewed around, management being woo woo If I can rebuild that relationship, repair that relationship, then I will truly value myself as a manager. Or maybe it's the other way around. I think it's the other way around.

Brian Wang:

If you're not valuing yourself, you will always find some other reason to criticize the thing that you're doing.

Kevin Lee:

Yeah, that's hilarious. I just defaulted to that. Okay, well, I got to value myself, to then value the skills or the responsibilities I bring as a manager, which will allow me to let go of the need to prove myself as an individual contributor.

Brian Wang:

So this criticism, or we can imagine the critic right, this critic as some part of you, what's it worried, will happen if it stops criticizing you?

Kevin Lee:

Oh man, yeah, I just, I guess I don't want to get complacent, I really don't want to be the I guess I feel like I shouldn't be the manager who loses touch with reality.

Brian Wang:

If you get complacent and you lose touch, what happens? What's the scary thing that happens?

Kevin Lee:

The scary thing is that the team loses respect for me. They feel like they're no longer growing or learning, especially from me. Abandoned, frankly speaking, because I worry they'll just jump ship and leave, and that fear of abandonment is has been always been a recurring theme.

Brian Wang:

Yeah, so the critic is really working hard to make sure you don't have to feel abandoned. Yes, sounds like it's got a good reason to do that. Then Abandonment feels really scary. Where do you feel any of that sense of abandonment right now, if at all?

Kevin Lee:

Mostly the heart. I mean there's yeah, it's obviously there's there's the deep rooted things, but there's also just a sphere of you know, me and Kchan spent years building Amy, starting from ground up with nothing, and just it's like we don't want to go back to that. I don't, like any founder does.

Brian Wang:

So I wonder if you can just sit with that feeling though that you were just describing, the one in the heart, the abandonment, the part, that feeling that your system is working so hard to avoid or resist. So is it still feel like it's in the heart and when you, when it shows up in the body?

Kevin Lee:

The heart is where it starts, the gut is where it lands. When I think of the worst case scenario, it's almost like a punch in the gut. Oh my God, the abandonment is happening.

Brian Wang:

Yeah, yeah. So what happens if you just allow that, if you allow yourself to feel that a little bit right now?

Kevin Lee:

Well it it sucks. But at the same time, as soon as I let it pass, the rational side of my brain kind of starts to kick in and it starts to think wow, kevin, that's a, that's a really dumb thought, that's a that's more criticism. Yeah, that's true, yeah. Hmm.

Brian Wang:

So let's set the intellectual aside for a moment. Oftentimes, our intellectual intellectualization is just a way to bypass our feelings. So so we'll just sit with the sit with the feeling a little bit longer.

Kevin Lee:

Yeah, I'm trying to feel my way out of this, that fear of abandonment it's. It almost feels like the only way out of it is to rationalize it through the, through the intellectual.

Brian Wang:

Yeah, that's. That's often how painful feelings work, right? They're so intolerable like we want to find a way out by mentalizing, intellectualizing. But what happens if you just check in with the feeling, though like to like, really not abandon it, to stay with it.

Kevin Lee:

It doesn't feel too bad to just feel it all the way through, realize that this feeling could happen someday and that's okay. Yeah, I guess it's it's. Maybe most of the internal struggle is like not wanting to feel these feelings and therefore you do whatever it takes to not feel it, versus just feel it all the way through and then it kind of just passes.

Brian Wang:

How old is the feeling Like, like? If you were to say like, how old is the kid that felt that feeling?

Kevin Lee:

Very, very young. You know very much, very much the. You know the young I don't even know how old you know being disciplined by the immigrant parents, and whether it's for something academic, and believing that they'll leave you or you'll be left if you don't perform Up to the standard that is required.

Brian Wang:

That's a really harsh way for a child to be treated.

Kevin Lee:

It is, it is very common, very common, I think. First gen immigrant story.

Brian Wang:

Or just most yeah yeah. So, of course, you know how do we have more time we could get into the intergenerational component of this. Let me ask you this, kevin, just like as you're in touch with that part that that that young kid who got treated harshly or was had the fear of abandonment if they didn't, you know, perform, what did it need then that it didn't get?

Kevin Lee:

I think that the discipline could have come in a different form. Yes, of course I'll caveat, you know, parents don't? It's their first rodeo, they don't know how to do a lot of this stuff and I definitely don't fault them at all for it. I think I think, if I think about how I'm going to raise you know, my wife and I are going to raise our own child there is a type of discipline that can come through love, that can reassure the child, and I think, like we're always going to be here for you, regardless of what happens in the situation. You know, we're just trying to work through this problem together and I think when you provide that level of foundation to any child, they don't have any insecurities or gaps or holes in their heart that could cause them to then, you know, lash out or grow up. You know grow in certain ways. That's my philosophy anyways. So I think so, yeah, it's yeah.

Brian Wang:

Yeah, I want to invite you just to give yourself that, or give that that young boy that, right now, that reassurance that you'll be there no matter what.

Kevin Lee:

Yeah, there's a there's a vicious cycle and I think I do think, if we had more time, there's something to go into here. I think there's this element of you know, I feel confident telling that young boy that it's going to be okay, because I feel extremely self reliant because of this feeling of this chip on the shoulder that I never wanted to be abandoned and therefore I was going to do whatever it takes to get to a point where you know that I would never feel abandoned by anyone, because I could rely on myself. And I think there's this like there's that perpetuating cycle of that chip on the shoulder that the that founders talk about, and it's going to take a lot of deep work to To unlearn that and work on that piece. But I have to admit it's not something that can be done, I think, in this short session, which is you know why have all is appreciated our sessions together? Because this is something I know we've worked on for years self-reliance.

Brian Wang:

You know it can be a superpower Until it starts to get in the way of something else. Yeah, but yeah, I guess, just to reflect on what you said, I think, even with all of the Like, the wounding that caused you to have to be so self-reliant, there's no need to take any of that away. You present day adult Kevin, can still provide that you're gonna version of yourself, that promise of being with it. Mm-hmm. Exactly as you are today. There's no need to change that right. What does that bring up for you I?

Kevin Lee:

Definitely think that's possible and there are many role models that I follow who have also done the inner worked To come to that same realization that you just called out and their inner drive comes from somewhere much More healthy and everlasting, versus. You know the drive that perhaps I'm moving off of right now, but I definitely think it's possible because I've seen it be possible In again in the role models, some of the role models I follow. So it is just going to be an ongoing practice of Call itself love or gratitude. You know, filling that, filling those gaps in the, in the, in the holes of the heart, that that I think every adult needs to work on. Hmm yeah.

Brian Wang:

So We'll start to run out of time here, so maybe we can start to close you were touching on this already just now, kevin Kind of further work, so Maybe we can consider some ways you can extend it. So I'll just start with you, like, I guess, as you Reflect a bit on on what we've explored, what might feel, what might feel valuable for you to continue to practice or to experiment with here.

Kevin Lee:

Well, I think one thing that came top of mine was you calling out something around like wanting to make my work obvious it it did trigger something for me, which is it's not that I need to make my work or it's a if for me. I think what I need to do is not make my work obvious to the team, but make the work obvious to myself, and the way to do that, I believe, is, for example, I do my weekly reflections every Saturday morning, where I have this notion template I fill out. I think I need to add a section for myself where I'm Literally writing like this is what you did as a manager this week, and here is why it was awesome or why it was. You know you are, why I am super proud of that work, and I'm just going to write all the things I did, and it can be something as small as you know. Hey, this team member had this problem and I helped him work through it and there wasn't any tangible output, but clearly it was a mental unlock or an aha moment for them, and I think the more I write these things down, the more I'll retrain my relationship with you know what a manager does and why it's beneficial, and I'll start to figure out why it's beneficial, and I'll start to feel More secure and happier and maybe even just proud of myself for doing the work that I do, and that'll let me finally let go of Anything that's not managerial work. So that's, that's probably the most tangible thing I can think of right now, something that's immediately actionable, because I already have a habit and I just need to add a little bit to that habit.

Brian Wang:

Yeah, I love that and I think that there's so much in what you just shared, because I think there is a Progressive Building of evidence of, hey, I am doing great work as a manager. Here's the evidence and I can start to craft a new Story or identity around it. Right, I know what my identity as an excellent, I see, looks and feels like this is this Relatively new one that doesn't quite feel stable, it feels a little scary, and so just to even just take the time to Look back, reflect on it, document it appreciate it Feels like it starts to sort of train your brain a little bit. It's like, hey, like there is something to be appreciated here, right, if you sort of take the time to do it.

Kevin Lee:

Definitely it's. It's exactly that. It's reframing my identity entirely, which I think is like the most fundamental part of habit building too.

Brian Wang:

Yeah, and so the other thing maybe just to touch on is, you know we talked about how there's this really strong inner critic, which I mean so many of us struggle with, right and and, and how, as you notice it, it's really working hard to make sure you're not feeling that abandonment right, or, in other words, it's really making it hard, making sure that you don't go back to being that little boy that feels the abandonment, right, and, as you were noting, there's sort of a way through that by just saying, all right, I'm gonna no longer resist that feeling Like if, if you no longer resist the feeling of abandonment, then the critics all of a sudden doesn't have so much of a reason for working so hard, mm-hmm, right, and so that's. the other thing I might offer is to see if you can Really just be present to that part of you that's feeling that, and to allow, allow that feeling to be there, to welcome that, to Love on it a little bit. Right because I think, as we just touched on here, it feels like an important Component in terms of the pattern, definitely, yeah, all right. So, as we just start to get to a close here, kevin, any, any final thoughts or takeaways you want to close out here with?

Kevin Lee:

Yeah, I think the well, my biggest takeaway is the. The founder journey is just a constant shedding of identities and, you know, each time you build that new identity, it's actually so important to just, you know, go through the practice of Loving yourself, you know to, before you adopt that new identity, or else there's just you'll feel like you're a, you feel like you're wearing a costume, you know you're not forever feel that imposter syndrome or whatever it is. You feel because you haven't done the fundamental groundwork to Feel secure under that new identity, that new layer of identity. And so I don't know, I guess I've never like visualized it like that before and I think it was nice to do that because, yeah, you know, I know I can go work on the habits that it takes to Again reframe and, you know, adopt that new identity and, and, yeah, just continue evolving as a leader. Yeah, I love that part about the costume.

Brian Wang:

Costumes can be taken off also. Right, they recognize that they're not you. All right, Kevin it was a pleasure to be with you today. Same thanks for having me.

Kevin Lee:

This is great, you well See you.

Brian Wang:

What started as a conversation about leadership turned into an exploration about the feelings that we subconsciously try to avoid. It turns out with Kevin that holding on to individual contributor work is a strategy to avoid feelings of abandonment. But as he welcomed that more vulnerable part of himself, he found an opening for a new perspective, one that is less about how others view him and more about appreciation from within, and through that he can start to more fully embrace his role as a leader. So often, what's getting in our way is not about knowledge or tactics. It's about the relationship that we have with ourselves. Take a moment to ask yourself where am I allowing my unacknowledged fears to get in the way of my business? Thank you for listening to slowdown to speed up. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate it in your favorite podcasting app. If you are a founder who would like help in reaching the next level through coaching, or if you'd like to come on the show, please contact me at dashingleadership.com.